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<body> <h1>Full Version: <a href="index.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">Swiss healthcare?</a></h1><a name="a86490_1"></a><p><b>From: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 17:48<br /><b>To: ALL</b></p> A friend sent this to me earlier today. If I read it right, $350 month for a comp plan, tho ded and OPM are not mentioned.<br /> <br /> <br /> Here’s a thought that might provide the basis for an agreeable compromise on health care: Switzerland was the right place to look. But the architects of the ACA took the wrong lessons.<br /> <br /> In Switzerland, health insurance and the delivery of health care are entirely private enterprises. There is no Swiss NHS, no single-payer, no “public option” — none of that. Switzerland has health care that is by European standards 1) excellent and 2) expensive. Insurance coverage, though entirely private, is universal. It is also heavily regulated and sustained through various direct and indirect subsidies, and consumption is restrained not through the god-kings of political management but through substantial out-of-pocket costs. There is a great deal of consumer choice and competition across internal political jurisdictions — as a result of which, Switzerland has one health-insurance company for every 100,000 residents. For comparison: In 2019, the United States is expected to have one insurance company on the ACA exchanges for every 1.7 million residents.<br /> <br /> Switzerland has an individual mandate that has nearly 100 percent compliance, which is achieved through ruthless enforcement. That enforcement is made easier by Switzerland’s extraordinary civic culture, but, still: If you fail to secure health insurance for yourself, you’ll get a notice from the authorities reminding you of your obligations, and if you continue in noncompliance, they’ll just sign you up for a policy and start charging you both forward-going premiums and retroactive premiums and penalties covering the period of your lapse.<br /> <br /> There is a legally defined bare-bones insurance policy in Switzerland, rather like the ACA’s statutory minimum coverage. Though there is no government-run insurance program in Switzerland, these programs sometimes are described as the country’s “social insurance,” and the insurance companies are obliged to offer them on a nonprofit basis. Premiums aren’t fixed by law, though insurers must charge everybody the same rate; because Switzerland has had nearly 100 percent compliance with its mandates since 1996 (it had about 98 percent voluntary coverage before that!), “preexisting conditions” are not much of an issue. Practice varies from canton to canton, but Switzerland subsidizes its system in two main ways: by providing direct subsidies for the premiums of low-income citizens and by providing financial support to the hospital system in general.<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/another-way-to-universal-health-care/">https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/another-way-to-universal-health-care/</a><p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.1">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_2"></a><p><b>From: Boomslang (DAVE PINKSTON)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.2">#2</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 18:01<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 13 Feb 19:24</p> Our Demographics are very different. <br /> <br /> Dave P<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.2">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_3"></a><p><b>From: Tedstor</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.3">#3</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 18:24<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 13 Feb 19:24</p> The Swiss probably didn't have half their politicians doing somersaults to undermine the program.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.3">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_4"></a><p><b>From: Neal (RNB65)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.4">#4</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 18:45<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 13 Feb 19:24</p> Pretty much every major industrialized country in the world has a better healthcare system than the US. We're at the bottom of the list.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.4">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_5"></a><p><b>From: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.5">#5</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 20:48<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 16 Feb 12:46</p> "<i><font color="#0000FF">... and consumption is restrained not through the god-kings of political management but through substantial out-of-pocket costs</font></i>."<br /> <br /> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br /> Therein lies the reason why it wouldn't work here in the US. Too many people here who haven't got two nickels to rub together, but for various reasons (often of their own doing), they are afflicted with medical needs that will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to treat. <br /> <br /> This, coupled with the idea that one person's problem is everyone else's responsibility to pay for the treatment is why limiting treatment through out-of-pocket costs won't work here. We don't have the balls to tell anyone "<i>Sorry, but we're not going to spend outrageous amounts of other people's money to treat your medical problems when you haven't done much of anything to provide for your own medical needs</i>."<br /> <br /> Charlie-------------------------------------------------------------<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.5">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_6"></a><p><b>From: Anser (ANSERMAN)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.6">#6</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 21:00<br /><b>To: Neal (RNB65)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.4">#4</a>] 13 Feb 21:00</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b><a href="messages.php?webtag=GEAFORUM&msg=86490.4">Neal (RNB65)</a></div><div class="quote">Pretty much every major industrialized country in the world has a better healthcare system than the US. We're at the bottom of the list.</div><br /> <br /> I pay $1 for amazing low deductible health insurance<br /> <br /> not everyone has bad care<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.6">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_7"></a><p><b>From: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.7">#7</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 21:27<br /><b>To: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.5">#5</a>] 14 Feb 8:31</p> Your response is so typical of the far right — you assume that most people’s health issues are their own fault and thus they do not deserve health care. The truth is there are many, many illnesses that have nothing do with someone’s actions or inactions, and given the dysfunction of our health care system are very expensive to treat. But you don’t want to hear that because blaming the person so you can ignore the problem is far easier. Such a twisted view, and every day you should thank God you don’t have someone close to you facing bankruptcy or severe physical dysfunction or death when confronted by a serious illness without adequate health insurance.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.7">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_8"></a><p><b>From: Anser (ANSERMAN)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.8">#8</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 21:34<br /><b>To: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.7">#7</a>] 13 Feb 22:20</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b><a href="messages.php?webtag=GEAFORUM&msg=86490.7">NNY Lefty</a></div><div class="quote">Your response is so typical of the far right — you assume that most people’s health issues are their own fault and thus they do not deserve health care. The truth is there are many, many illnesses that have nothing do with someone’s actions or inactions, and given the dysfunction of our health care system are very expensive to treat. But you don’t want to hear that because blaming the person so you can ignore the problem is far easier. Such a twisted view, and every day you should thank God you don’t have someone close to you facing bankruptcy or severe physical dysfunction or death when confronted by a serious illness without adequate health insurance.</div><br /> <br /> Why didn't get get better health insurance?<br /> <br /> Before you say they couldn't... #### they couldn't. Anyone can be anything they want to be here, it just takes hard work.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.8">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_9"></a><p><b>From: Boomslang (DAVE PINKSTON)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.9">#9</a>]<br /> 13 Feb 21:43<br /><b>To: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.7">#7</a>] 13 Feb 22:20</p> Yes there are many illnesses. And a lot of them are brought on by the way people eat. They eat too much and eat the wrong things. And to top it off, we as a whole are one of the laziest countries in the world. Never mind that Switzerland has only 8.5 million people and their unemployment rate is 2.8%. Their poverty rate is 7%, which is about half of ours. Their are a lot of differences between the US and Switzerland. You need to keep that in mind.<br /> <br /> Dave P<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.9">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_10"></a><p><b>From: Polymer</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.10">#10</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 3:58<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 16 Feb 12:46</p> <p>I don't know if you're saying the system in Switzerland is better or not..</p> <p>But it is incredibly expensive....I've been there for 2 years,. My wife and I currently pay almost 1k a month in premiums...</p> <p>There are still charges from the doctors....still charges for some drugs...big charges for dental...</p> <p>And depending on what extras you want, it can get even more expensive...for example, you actually want an ambulance from another Canton other than the one you live in? That's extra....</p> <p>But you're right about the rest...they force compliance because if you don't get it they'll sign you up for one and you'll need to pay it.....I don't see a huge difference between their system and the US one...other than there are generally fewer restrictions...but it is also a lot more expensive...</p> <p><br /> IMO, the Australian system is better...</p> <p>Basically...</p> <p>1.5% towards Medicare...which everyone is covered with...And the standards of what is covers and how much is written out. If you want to go to a "Bulk billing" doctor you're 100% covered but you can choose to go to a doctor that charges more per visit and you can pay the difference out of pocket. </p> <p>If you earn over a certain amount, you can either pay a Medicare surcharge or get "private health insurance". Pretty much you will pay for Private health insurance (which can run 100-200 month or more depending on your situation). With Private you have the option to use EITHER Medicare (Public) or your private...in some cases you're better off using public and others private...Private has some other benefits...Private lets you do non-critical surgery faster vs. public you have to wait. Private will get you your own room in a hospital. But in general the actual public system for emergency procedures are actually better. Co-Pays aren't too big but aren't too small either...Basically they're big enough to keep people from abusing the system but not big enough to keep you from using it if you need to. </p> <p>It isn't perfect...there are a few funny gaps...but the system applies a broad pharmaceutical policy/cost...which can be good or bad...mostly good...and it applies to everyone regardless of your insurance situation. They also mandate insurance for everyone..which means if you don't qualify for medicare (Citizen/permanent resident) then you need to get insurance.</p><p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.10">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_11"></a><p><b>From: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.11">#11</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 9:39<br /><b>To: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.7">#7</a>] 14 Feb 9:45</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b><a href="messages.php?webtag=GEAFORUM&msg=86490.7">NNY Lefty</a></div><div class="quote">Your response is so typical of the far right — you assume that most people’s health issues are their own fault and thus they do not deserve health care. The truth is there are many, many illnesses that have nothing do with someone’s actions or inactions, and given the dysfunction of our health care system are very expensive to treat. But you don’t want to hear that because blaming the person so you can ignore the problem is far easier. Such a twisted view, and every day you should thank God you don’t have someone close to you facing bankruptcy or severe physical dysfunction or death when confronted by a serious illness without adequate health insurance.</div><br /> ----------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br /> It's a matter of choices, responsibilities, and priorities. Too many people place too little emphasis on healthcare insurance and spend their money on other priorities. Then, when they get sick, they want others to bail them out.<br /> <br /> If you want to be sure that you won't go broke from some future illness, then take a job that pays for most, if not all, of your health insurance premiums. Too many people never make financial plans for the possibility of having a serious illness. They spend their money on other more "fun" things. Then, when they get sick, they cry "woe is me" and want others to pay for their lack of planning and poor choices.<br /> <br /> There are many jobs that have excellent medical insurance coverage. Some of them have fairly high requirements for education and job skills and aren't available to just anyone who wants them. Others though, such as working for a utility company, school system, or the government often have considerably lower requirements (depending on the job/position), but may not pay a lot compared to private business. <br /> <br /> So, again, it's a matter of priorities. Make your choices and then take responsibility for the choices you make. Don't blame your poor choices on someone else and expect them to bail you out from your own poor choices. <br /> <br /> Charlie------------------------------------------------------------<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.11">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_12"></a><p><b>From: Dave (DAVELEENC)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.12">#12</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 10:15<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 16 Feb 12:46</p> <p>FWIW, this suggestion to move/migrate toward a Swiss model came out of the National Review. Note that this isn't even close to being a progressive agenda backing publication (it was founded by William F. Buckley). </p> <p>The problem with treating healthcare like any other capitalist market is that, given our attitudes, there IS NO MARKET in healthcare. The purpose of a market is to set a price where supply meets demand. Some folks who would "like to have" said product see the price and decline to purchase said product.</p> <p>Healthcare, as we want it, does not work that way. If there is a new treatment out there that is inherently expensive, everybody in the "market" gets it (if they want/need it). This is not a market and market processes will handle this badly. </p> <p>Another example is that drug companies spend more on marketing than R&D in the US. This is not because they are evil. It is because they are rational and, quite frankly, doing anything else would probably be illegal as they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders - not to the US at large. </p> <p>Unfortunately centralized control processes at the governmental level (IMHO) aren't so great either. </p> <p>dave</p><p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.12">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_13"></a><p><b>From: Milfordlefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.13">#13</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 10:18<br /><b>To: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.5">#5</a>] 14 Feb 12:13</p> Charlie, do you have health insurance policy? Thru employer? 100% paid by yourself? Medicare?<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.13">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_14"></a><p><b>From: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.14">#14</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 11:18<br /><b>To: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.11">#11</a>] 14 Feb 12:13</p> <p>Charlie, I have to ask what fantasy world you live in where everyone who wants a well paying job with excellent health insurance just has to work hard and they will get it. </p> <p>Do you really have no idea how many jobs these days are part time with no health insurance, the obstacles many face in trying to get a good education to qualify for one of your plum jobs, how crappy the plans are that many companies do offer their employees, and I can go on and on and on. </p> <p>And the one possible fix to at least give some people access to health care that don't have it otherwise, the Affordable Care Act, the Rs are trying to gut and make it completely ineffective. Again, you should be shouting thanks to heaven every night that you seem to be one of the fortunate few who don't have to worry about such things because you are living in a fantasy world.</p><p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.14">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_15"></a><p><b>From: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.15">#15</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 12:20<br /><b>To: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.14">#14</a>] 14 Feb 13:05</p> <p>You're full of it as usual. As I said, it's a matter of priorities... and of course being willing to work. You may actually have to get your hands dirty in some of the jobs.</p> <p>Charlie------------------------------------------------</p><p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.15">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_16"></a><p><b>From: COME_AND_TAKE_IT! (HAX)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.16">#16</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 12:26<br /><b>To: Mike (LINKSRAT)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.1">#1</a>] 16 Feb 12:46</p> I wonder how that would work out for them if we added 20 million Mexicans to their population.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.16">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_17"></a><p><b>From: NNY Lefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.17">#17</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 13:07<br /><b>To: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.15">#15</a>] 14 Feb 13:15</p> You think the jobs that pay people to get their hands dirty provide great health insurance? Really? Ok, I'm done here.<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.17">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_18"></a><p><b>From: Milfordlefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.18">#18</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 14:50<br /><b>To: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.13">#13</a>] 14 Feb 15:10</p> Charlie, do you have health insurance policy? Thru employer? 100% paid by yourself? Medicare?<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.18">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_19"></a><p><b>From: Charlie (CHARLIED6)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.19">#19</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 15:21<br /><b>To: Milfordlefty</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.18">#18</a>] 15 Feb 8:05</p> <p>I do have health insurance (BCBS). I'm a retired federal employee. I pay about $5,000 per year (roughly) in premiums for the lowest level of insurance. My past employer pays the balance. I don't have Medicare coverage for health insurance but have hospitalization (Part A only) through Medicare which covers only the hospital charges but nothing for the doctors, labs, technicians, X-rays, medicine, and all that stuff. </p> <p>Many other engineers who graduated with me chose to go with private businesses for higher salaries, more benefits, and greater opportunities. I chose the more conservative, lower paying, but somewhat safer route. I'm content with my decision. I assume and hope they are happy with theirs. </p> <p>So, what are the details of your insurance?</p> <p>Charlie----------------------------------------------------</p><p class="edit_text">EDITED: 14 Feb 17:59 by CHARLIED6</p> <p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.19">Reply</a></p> <hr /><a name="a86490_20"></a><p><b>From: Boomslang (DAVE PINKSTON)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.20">#20</a>]<br /> 14 Feb 21:48<br /><b>To: COME_AND_TAKE_IT! (HAX)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.16">#16</a>] 15 Feb 5:32</p> How about 42% of their population not paying income tax?<br /> Dave P<p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=&replyto=86490.20">Reply</a></p> <hr /><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="" size="0" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="86490.21" size="0" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="submit1" value="Keep reading" class="button" /></form><p align="center">Show messages:  1-20  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.21">21-40</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.41">41-60</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.61">61-80</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=&msg=86490.81">81-86</a></p> <p><a href="lpost.php?webtag=GEAFORUM&replyto=86490.0" target="_parent">Reply to All</a></p> <h4><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=GEAFORUM">Back to thread list</a> | <a href="llogout.php?webtag=GEAFORUM">Login</a></h4> <h6>© 2019 <a href="http://www.beehiveforum.net/" target="_blank">Project Beehive Forum</a></h6> </body> </